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Vaccine first:

Starting a new clan? Want strategies and tips for playing better?

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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Typatty » Mon May 24, 2010 2:50 am

Who the fuck cares about Sun Tsu?


As soon as the game starts for Vaccine, I get light with leg implants, stealth, and sound suppressor. Then I bunny hop and sprint as fast as I can to the first objective and I hug the walls so I don't bump into anyone. If they don't have a heavy blocking the objective in time, I usually get past. This is usually a really good bet because it's really just for the cost of a dead light and the payoff is getting past the first objective within the first minute of the round.

Besides that, you have to look at where Corps defense is. If they don't have snipers defending the docks, then opening the back door is a good idea. If they're sniping and you can't kill their snipers, then go through the front because their snipers will be weakened that way. Generally I try and bunnyhop with stealth and sound suppressor every few minutes, especially if the backdoor is open. If their team isn't at 100% with a TAC, good thermals or heavy blocking, then I can usually get in and cap that first objective, because SWT won't notice me and I'm usually fast enough to only get TAC'd when I'm at least halfway through.

I figure it's generally worth the payoff considering the cost is only a light.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby bauxite » Mon May 24, 2010 7:51 am

Typatty wrote:Who the fuck cares about Sun Tsu?

agreed.

but the rest of the post is only rellevant to pubs, dystopia has wallhacks, you can't surprise the enemy lol.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby obj » Mon May 24, 2010 3:26 pm

metzgrr! wrote:Obj, Analogy, You would still be fighting. Be real with yourself now. Only way this would fit in is if you strive to win games by forfeit.


This is what I mean, You say something negative about Sun Tsu and people jump on to defend him regardless of how silly they have to be.


Pardon the language, but you are silly if you think you do not win matches through recruition, building of team spirit, properly choosing your opponents and maps and so, more than practice or fighting. That is the only way to become number one in a team-based environment such as team sports, team online games or indeed armies. "Fighting" accounts for a very small amount of a winning season, even though it may account for a large part of winning a match. If your goal is to win a single match then "practice practice practice", or if you want to learn some special attacking tactic or some get better at your DM or something. But if you want to build a team that can actually achieve something besides the petitesse of winning a match, you need more than just "practice".

If you're curious, I don't give a shit about Sun Tzu and never read anything by him, but I agreed with jokers comments which he said were Sun Tzu quotes.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby metzgrr! » Tue May 25, 2010 8:04 am

""Fighting" accounts for a very small amount of a winning season"

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."

""Fighting" accounts for a very small amount of a winning season"

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."


Does this work at all?

And ofcourse I dont think practise is all there is to it, the reason to why I linked it, is because its funny, and because of the context of it.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Hyphen-ated » Thu May 27, 2010 3:22 am

Subduing the enemy without fighting in dystopia sounds like forcing a scheduling forfeit. Nobody likes those
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby ViralHatred » Thu May 27, 2010 3:41 pm

I generally found that opening docks and rushing through in a wave will kill off most opposition. Then hop in as a stealth and cap. Is usually successful.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Furtal1ty » Thu May 27, 2010 7:34 pm

Hyphen-ated wrote:Subduing the enemy without fighting in dystopia sounds like forcing a scheduling forfeit. Nobody likes those


Warsprite does.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby joker » Fri May 28, 2010 12:40 am

Wow the Sun Tzu debate really took off! In both directions too--- obj is right by his statement, "If you're curious, I don't give a shit about Sun Tzu and never read anything by him, but I agreed with jokers comments which he said were Sun Tzu quotes." (Obj 2010) What I did, was choose a teaching or a saying, if you will, that illustrated a point- within a similar context- if you don't know yourself or your enemy how can you win, etc... it makes sense- put into practice however much you want, I'm just saying its largely applicable, and its impacted on my viewing of the game- BY NO means would I spout Sun Tzu, if i thought he was just intelligent. That's like looking up big words in the thesaurus- mere child's play.

Oh I think it does translate very well, save maybe for that quote as the context is different- mainly because the reality is different (I think at this point Sun Tzu was looking at the Costs of prolonged wars, at the stage I quoted he was all about knowing oneself, the enemy, the terrain, the heavens, etc.) To, 'subdue without fighting is the supreme art' is best explained by Zhuge Liang (Takeshi Kaneshiro for those who watched Red Cliff) - war in this context- causes strain on the land, makes the people impoverished, causes loss of life (in the Art of War I believe that part you mentioned is followed by something like: 'What good is it to conquer a land with no people') -this overall leads to the last resort, which is war. (ooo bad sentence) You are right Metz, war in Dystopia is essential, so that aspect of the Art of War, doesn't translate so well, but maybe, can we envision it differently- can we see this tactic applied in dystopia by a means of stripping, distracting the enemy and withdrawing to open up holes in their defense? Or can we take it metaphysically? and subdue their will to fight (thus achieving supreme victory)?

I think the Art of war is very interesting, and I think no matter how much we say- 'this doesn't apply- I just go guns a blazing, a shell of a human being *piloting* a shell of an avatar into battle which is meaningless' - we have to realise we are impacted upon by the philosophies we live by, the social interactions that form our *comraderie*, etc.

Typatty and Bauxite are right- for the purpose of this post- people don't need to care (though that could be just ignorance to think about it, who knows) Care if you think it will help- and Baux, seeing someone coming is one thing, being prepared for the encounter is another, and the encounter turning out as you planned is also another :D-- let's break up the idea of 'enemy'- do you know the enemy? what are his patterns? How successful is he? what does his presence do to you?-- then, do you know your capabilities? Do you think you can intercept him, do you know how to lock-down his patterns, can you outsmart him and contend with the other enemies? --- some really great things to consider.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby ocun » Fri May 28, 2010 2:40 am

just watch a few vaccine demo's from official matches!

http://woosome.net/dys/dgl/demos/
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby obj » Fri May 28, 2010 4:04 pm

Argh have been tempted to get this a bit out of my system, no offence to you personally metz but here goes.

The thing about argument and argument analysis that almost never works on the Internet is that, when analysing and interpretting the other parts argument, you need to have good faith. You need to believe, perhaps not genuinely but at least make pretend that the other person is not an idiot. You analyze their statements and think to yourself, well, he probably didn't mean exactly what he said, but there's a thing that's almost what he said that makes sort of sense, even though it's still wrong. I'll ask him if that's what he meant! If you don't do that there's no point to debating. If instead you quote and ridicule then you are in fact doing your argument analysis in the wrong way. Tough statement perhaps but that's as it is.

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."

If you're going to analyze that statement within the context of Dystopia, then ask yourself, for example, this: Is it meant as a statement of fact, or as a statement of an extreme example, perhaps a thought experiment? This type of thinking requires using abstract thinking, perhaps even trying on someone elses viewpoint, which can be tricky!

As a more specific thought from me, you can also perhaps get accustomed to the idea that not all ideals are set to be actually achieved...
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby n0rb » Sat May 29, 2010 5:32 am

Why do I always stop reading when Joker posts those wall-o-texts...
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby metzgrr! » Sat May 29, 2010 8:26 am

Im not trying to ridicule you, I do that to make my point as clear as possible. Often when I try to post joker-style I forget my original point.

I feel like I have to make myself clear again, but im going to make it in a less asshole'ish way: I dont think people should take Sun Tsus quotes to heart, because they have to be translated, and when you translate, you have to consider if the translation is good or bad. You may not realize it funk, but you are not taking Sun Tsus quotes to heart as you are making your own interpretation of them.

And just in case it may have have looked like it, I do not in any way argue with the goal of social superiority, I despise it when people value social status. I do not have a good translation for it, but atleast funk will understand me when I say I argue with "glimten i ögat".

Other then that, we might as well agree to disagree.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Omnigord » Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:19 am

bauxite wrote:armour is they key mechanism, if you strip them, its too risky for them to all commit suicide, which is what gives the punks an edge on subsequent rushes, then it all comes down to killing them before they kill you, the idea being that a fresh team with armour has a large advantage over a team that has taken heavy damage to armour.

bauxite wrote:pretty much the same for all vacc objectives.
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