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Vaccine first:

Starting a new clan? Want strategies and tips for playing better?

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Vaccine first:

Postby [c]ain » Tue May 18, 2010 4:45 am

I know i know, a hella old map, but im really curious on how you rush first objective properly. We got harassed by bd's defence and we wernt able to cap first objective like i would have wanted (givin, my internet was shitty, and my isp decided to fuck with my internet RIGHT before our match) So what is the better way, rush docks and front door? or just push through front door til you cap it? even use back door? But what if you cant get back door and cyber, and your getting murdered in meatspace? Those questions came up to me as i was watching my teams offence against bd's defence.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby JESBUS » Tue May 18, 2010 8:15 pm

moved here so you can get a response
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby murphy » Tue May 18, 2010 8:23 pm

I like what tank does

they just kind of swarm the objective like the Zerg

savior is like a zergling at the front just taking the damage and stripping as required

joker is like an ultralisk just mowing down everything in his path

bitey is like a brood lord sieging the docks with his rockets and no one can hit him without going through joker

john's like the infestor, coming from the front with savior (front of the base, but back of the army) but they're so focused on bitey and joker at the docks he just burrows underground and captures the objective also he can mind control

beast is like the queen just helping the econ by dropping creep tumor (docks) to help them get to places faster

it becomes really hard to defend when you have to split up your forces to deal with multiple threats sort of like how the protoss sentry forcefield splits apart your army

imo going "all front" or "all docks" or "all backdoor" is silly since it becomes really clear within a second what you're going to do, and you can adjust accordingly

for actually using the backdoor - going front and then having one light drop to backdoor is good, but if you can't slip past the front line force then I would say that if you have a decent bunnyhopper sending one to backdoor is fine, otherwise it's such a time investment and they might just deck in and take it back
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Analogy » Tue May 18, 2010 8:40 pm

Murphy's been playing too much SC2 beta.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Savior » Tue May 18, 2010 10:31 pm

Now I will illustrate the Tank Vaccine first defense in terms of Protoss.

Savior is a Zealot,(with charge upgraded) he takes damage and runs around while countering silly ranged people such as hydralisks.

Bitey is more of an immortal, fucking raping armored units with those plasma gun thingys they have(grenade launcher)

Joker is actually an archon, he fucks up basically everything in his path, however watch out, he has mostly shields (armor) and if they drop, he's going to have a lot harder of a time

John is more of a Photon cannon. He holds down the fort and hes also a detector(therms), so cloaked units(stealthers) can't get him.

Now Beast and Nord, they're more of sentrys. They keep the enemies out of the base using forcefield(docks) and make sure we only have to fight a small part of their army at once.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby murphy » Tue May 18, 2010 11:24 pm

sentries*
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby 916.John » Tue May 18, 2010 11:40 pm

Analogy wrote:Murphy's been playing too much SC2 beta.


By playing you mean trolling.

Murphy: Savior, let's both go Terran and just fly our command centers to the corners. -- in random 2v2
Savior: (emits troll laugh)


Anyways, it's only proper that there is a writeup for Terran. I'll have Celery get on that when I catch him.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby murphy » Wed May 19, 2010 1:18 am

my analogy only worked because the Zerg swarm everything (I mean they're literally called The Swarm. what the fuck), i.e. coming in from all sides, etc, illustrating what I mean by attacking all sides at once

when do you ever see like MASS PHOTON CANNONS

oh wait
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby bauxite » Wed May 19, 2010 7:56 am

well the way to cap these objectives is by using a mechanic built in to dystopia's core gameplay.

by these objectives, i mean the ones where the defense has an extremely large advantage, in theory, if your team was lesser skilled in cyber and you could not deck the docks, you pretty much have only 2 routes inside, both the front doors, extremely easy to defend, even if you did manage to keep the cyberspace you would be one man down in meat, and so the corps can still easily defend the objective.

armour is they key mechanism, if you strip them, its too risky for them to all commit suicide, which is what gives the punks an edge on subsequent rushes, then it all comes down to killing them before they kill you, the idea being that a fresh team with armour has a large advantage over a team that has taken heavy damage to armour.

use all the info you can get about the enemy frorm tacs etc, to see what course of action you should take, and coordinate your attacks as a team.

pretty much the same for all vacc objectives.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby [c]ain » Wed May 19, 2010 5:32 pm

So your pretty much stuck going front. But the GL defence for front doors, and you cant get through one side. Is it reccomended to use both sides and split up, or stagger 1 or 2 guys in to strip the GLs, then push the other 3 through the same side?
10:51 PM - Kommissar Chi: god dystopia, why do you always do this. I can't take you anywhere. you always get trashed, and insult my friends. last time I invited you over, you hit on my mom
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby joker » Wed May 19, 2010 7:26 pm

Too many if's here. I'd suggest looking at your team make up first- assessing their skills and seeing if certain tactics are possible. Forcing your way through gl fire is something i'd only advise to people who's prime directive is either - death or pushing the enemy team back. If it was your team, i'd try to incorporate stealthers into your team composition- not many people use thermals ingame- save for normally the jip heavy or maybe light classes- since comp. play mainly consists of mediums I wouldn't worry too much. You'd rotate deck at base to capture the docks, bd, etc and you'd use your muscle, i.e. mediums or heavies (on attack) to be the arrowhead of the assault. Your light would make it a mission to strip or emp or go for obj. After each deck rotation you attack.

points to remember:

1) strip first i.e. 2 shots or so into everyone
2) aim to strip their heavy if they have one or to get into range before they can successfully gl i.e. cause them to team damage
3) watch your clock- attack at 7-8 seconds- if none of you are dying- suicide if you are at low hp to continue the low spawn time- nothing is worse than seeing that 1 second pass only to see 3 guys get owned. If the advantage is on your side with like 3 guys left vs 1 ion (with no spiders) butt rape him.

Basics is pretty much all you need-- move well, shoot well, think well, look at your map, attack together, etc.

Sun tzu says "the general who knows himself and knows others, will always be successful"- "he who doesn't know himself, and doesn't have intelligence, will surely fail" i.e. know yourself and "be like water :P"
bigtoecommando: "that joker is pretty good" " yeah he hax"

ss_elmo: teams aren't tt unbalanced actually
Le Glaude: omfg
ss_elmo: it's just joker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_udqEp_YR4
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby obj » Thu May 20, 2010 1:03 pm

The paradox there being that water doesn't have any consciousness, so if you are like water, you can't know yourself. Such riddles are at the very core of strategy!
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby joker » Fri May 21, 2010 2:13 am

ahhh but Master Lee's argument was to be like water within a certain context- so, water in a jar, or water in a cup, or water in a river--- they all become i.e. the cup, the jar, the river (which follows a meandering path etc) So, water is formless, but can become formed.
bigtoecommando: "that joker is pretty good" " yeah he hax"

ss_elmo: teams aren't tt unbalanced actually
Le Glaude: omfg
ss_elmo: it's just joker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_udqEp_YR4
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby metzgrr! » Sat May 22, 2010 1:00 pm

Sun Tsu was an warlord, not a gamer. Dont take his quote to heart as they do not translate well from war to videogames.

If you want a good quote from a good gamer, here you go:

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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby joker » Sun May 23, 2010 12:55 am

metzgrr! wrote:Sun Tsu was an warlord, not a gamer. Dont take his quote to heart as they do not translate well from war to videogames.


Interesting point, funny how he was renowned moreso as a strategist than a warlord, in fact I think his descendant Sun Ce was more of the warlord though. To expand on your point metz, I think Sun Tzu's quotes on strategy can be implemented to gaming quite easily (sorry to be bluntly sarcastic) but it seems you are boxing video games into its own little niche, walled off from anything inherently un-videogame like. Disturbing. I wonder how buisnessmen or psychologists feel when they utilise aspects of the Art of War in their daily practices... hmmmm.

Also, I'm less inclined to listen to fatality (thats the guy in the video right?) on the basis that he has shown to be "subjected" to video games- Sun Tzu, you can say- was a strategist, a martialist, a "warlord" if you will and a "Daoist" (but then again Sun Tzu is subjected to the content of his book... odd) Oh well, take what you will from it. My point is to not be closed off to other influences other than "gamers on games" its like Preaching the Gospel of Razer to Razerites in a bubble (no way its going to be so simple).
bigtoecommando: "that joker is pretty good" " yeah he hax"

ss_elmo: teams aren't tt unbalanced actually
Le Glaude: omfg
ss_elmo: it's just joker

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_udqEp_YR4
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby bauxite » Sun May 23, 2010 2:22 am

while that may be the case, it is possible to apply strategies learnt from one thing to another, such as war to games, which are also suprisingly similar, i would rather take the advice of someone who is an expert in that area.

They can also give you more specific advice rather than general stuff that can apply to games, war, or getting ripped, so its probably a better idea to take advice from arnold for bodybuilding and sun tzu for war, arguably sun tzu was also alive at a completely different time and things change, his advice may even become irrelevant for war, as war is still war, but how it's conducted has changed drastically, and the same goes for many things, including gaming.

although somethings never change, but keep in mind what exactly it is that you are looking to learn and sometimes you have to figure it out yourself, practice might help.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Pada » Sun May 23, 2010 3:09 am

sun tzu and his teachings apply to everything.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby metzgrr! » Sun May 23, 2010 5:51 am

Im not "closed off" to other influences, I just said not to take them to heart.

I can agree with Sun Tsu on the point that "he who does not have intelligence, will fail.", but since the quote could as well have been written by an child, the advice "Shoot the guy in the head" is just as useful. I just dont see whats so great about Sun Tsu. The famous quotes from him arent that intelligent, or wise, maybe because they dont translate well from Chinese to English, or maybe because hes overhyped. People worship him without questioning if what he says really translate well to what they are doing.


Besides, we can make your own quotes.

Your opponents are your mentors, play superior opponents.

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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby bauxite » Sun May 23, 2010 6:06 am

i like shoot the guy in the head more tbh :D

always works.

best strategy in dystopia.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Analogy » Sun May 23, 2010 2:38 pm

Sun Tzu was writing about war - a situation in which two opposing parties engage each other in order to achieve their goals or prevent their enemy from achieving theirs. If that sounds familiar, it's because practically every single person does it every single day. There are so many competitive aspects to human society that his writings can't help but apply to huge swaths of our everyday lives, especially those parts where we are directly simulating actual combat with our computers.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby metzgrr! » Sun May 23, 2010 4:21 pm

Analogy wrote:Sun Tzu was writing about war - a situation in which two opposing parties engage each other in order to achieve their goals or prevent their enemy from achieving theirs. If that sounds familiar, it's because practically every single person does it every single day. There are so many competitive aspects to human society that his writings can't help but apply to huge swaths of our everyday lives, especially those parts where we are directly simulating actual combat with our computers.


metzgrr! wrote:Dont take his qoutes to heart


metzgrr! wrote:Dont take his qoutes to heart


metzgrr! wrote:Dont take his qoutes to heart


metzgrr! wrote:as they do not translate well from war to videogames.


Never once did I say they did not apply, ofcourse they apply, but the question is how well they translate.

Sun Tsu thinks that "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.", this translates horrible, HORRIBLE, to dystopia.


I take back what I said about Tsu, I found this quote: "You have to believe in yourself."... Its not Sun Tsu's fault for saying obvious things, but its silly of people to take everything he says like if they where the wisest things.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby obj » Sun May 23, 2010 4:44 pm

metz, it translates pretty well if you consider (each DGL season perhaps) it in terms of campaigns where you strive to achieve certain goals. Perhaps the normal clan member is not helped much but if you're interested in the larger picture (recruition, choice of opponents, attitude), you can find some ideas there.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Ichi » Sun May 23, 2010 8:00 pm

OR Tank just goes batshit crazy
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby Analogy » Sun May 23, 2010 9:45 pm

metzgrr! wrote:Sun Tsu thinks that "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.", this translates horrible, HORRIBLE, to dystopia.


You don't think that if you can come up with a strategy to capture an objective without hinging your strategy on having to win a fight, that would be the best strategy to use? One player taking the back route unexpectedly and being able to cap without the uncertainty of a fight that can be lost is worth way more than an entire team fighting their way through the front and *maybe* being able to overpower the defense.
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Re: Vaccine first:

Postby metzgrr! » Sun May 23, 2010 11:15 pm

Obj, Analogy, You would still be fighting. Be real with yourself now. Only way this would fit in is if you strive to win games by forfeit.


This is what I mean, You say something negative about Sun Tsu and people jump on to defend him regardless of how silly they have to be.
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